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← darkroom
[Spoilers] Heavenly Delusion - Episode 3 Discussion
not traumatising at all to wake up in the body of your own sister
Seems Like My Predictions Were Right, None the less great ep
We dont know why hes inside. Just that he is.
Most Likely The Sister Told The Doctor To Give Her Brother Her Body, but yeah they didn't tell us just my guess
I would recommend reading manga chapter 9 (it covers only past events) because it has a less mild view point on the relationship between siblings. I think, chapter itself is emotionally heavier in many regards.
Anime also added scenes of them traveling together to facilitate a more familial relationship (I don't remember them happening, but could be wrong).
Now with that episode kiss to the mirror scene suddenly makes a lot of sense.
Backstory dropped. That's a quick 24 minutes and from what I understand, shit's pretty fucked ngl. Now some of the actions they did in episode 1 make sense.
However, "10 years since the calamity" seems to be 2034. Iirc in episode 2, when the student (forgot his name) went to get his ball, the camera is labelled "17/06/23". Does that mean the facility's event happened in 2023, and right just before the calamity? I'm projecting a lot here, the camera date could be labelled in a different system and shit but the answer definitely dropped later on.
"Real baby doesn't have faces" ???? Is what she mentioned the creature that is shown in the trailer? We shall see next week.
I did not notice these details, holy hell you are attentive.
I caught it on my second watch with friends. I even joke that this will happen 2 months from now lol.
Well spotted Sherlock!
Good detail. Although, does this mean then Man-Eaters were a thing before the Great Calamity already? Because the supervisors act like the Man-Eaters already exist (or something similarly horrible) and isolate the children on purpose to protect them.
Right, also the supervisor said to the children that there are monsters outside. I don't think she is lying but more like a misleading statement. Maybe we will get a better picture of this in the next episode (when we get to see the faceless baby).
even though to me it was obvious what was going to happen, it didn't damper my enjoyment of it, and it also makes the bathroom scene in episode 1 (or 2?) a lot more weird, overall I think this is the best episode so far
Simply mind-blowing.
Heavenly Delusion #3: Kiriko and Haruki
Staff Count:
1|1|0|6
20|8+4|23+12|14+7
So now we got the backstory, and it’s fucked up. It didn’t pull my heartstrings much, though, even if it’s a solid backstory as it is and it was well-directed.
It seems the bigger mystery is more what the doctor is up to, and what Man-Eaters are. The conversation with Maru and Kiruko at the end was weird, but I guess it’s normal for most Japanese writing to treat straight as “normal” and gay as a non-possibility.
This Man-Eater is terrifying. I also thought we wouldn’t get any content this week from the other storyline we have going but we got something at the end, and it was creepy too. But well, these kids lack common knowledge in many areas.
The conversation with Maru and Kiruko at the end was weird, but I guess it’s normal for most Japanese writing to treat straight as “normal” and gay as a non-possibility.
You could be right in terms of background cultural bias of the author, which I have considered too. However, note how Maru having a hard time believing/agreeing (rightly so but still) with the concept and Kiruko has accepted "sis" when asked if he should stop doing it. On my first seeing that scene it raised my eyebrow when Kiruko said to keep using sis after saying that "I am a guy, we both guys" etc.
By now its pretty apparent how intentional things are in heavenly delusion and the episode is no minor part of the plot.
I wanna clarify that plot is a total mystery to me too, I have no clue what is going on in general.
The conversation with Maru and Kiruko at the end was weird, but I guess it’s normal for most Japanese writing to treat straight as “normal” and gay as a non-possibility.
I don't think you need to necessarily bring it up to a cultural commentary on this particular level. "I'm a dude" here is just a less-straightforward way of saying "I'm a straight guy in a girl's body, I'm still attracted to women." I don't think there's anything wrong with that particular kind of heteronormative short-hand.
I don't think this is treating gay as a "non-possibility", it's just the characters have what they believe to be well-defined sexual identities. What makes this interesting is how the post-apocalyptic story questions and threatens those identities. It's really quite fascinating, I don't feel like I have the right strings to pull on to discuss it but it is such a profoundly interesting set up imo.
tl;dr: It's important to not interpret what characters say or how they act as a reflection of the author's political/sociocultural beliefs.
I agree with you that you can explain it differently and in a way that makes sense, but if you ask me, imagining such a conversation RL is weird to me, so it felt unnatural and anime have a strong track record except some exceptions to treat hetero as the one and only normal thing to be and this conversation felt oddly familiar in the sense. Being gay is either played as a joke or as a weird thing, or just treated as if it doesn't exist. If it helps to explain, it was super weird to me to when in a Shoujo anime I watched the male love interest told the female interest that she's in the wrong because "she's a girl". I just don't like when dialogue feels cut short and forced because the mention of your gender or sex in itself "explains" everything when there is more to the actual reason why characters feel/behave that way. It feels like a support towards a norm without questioning it and removal of any nuance. It's just way too common in Japanese works to encounter it and it feels like a byproduct of the restrictive society over there. Yes, I'm generalizing but I nonetheless feel weird about this conversation.
I don't think this is treating gay as a "non-possibility", it's just the characters have what they believe to be well-defined sexual identities. What makes this interesting is how the post-apocalyptic story questions and threatens those identities. It's really quite fascinating, I don't feel like I have the right strings to pull on to discuss it but it is such a profoundly interesting set up IMO.
Since you mentioned sexual identities, I would also like to shortly mention that it also is very very rarely discussed in anime while I believe it to be an interesting topic. It also wasn't discussed in Tengoku so far. Again, I'm generalizing but if you ask me I don't feel like we might see anything on that front in future episodes either. If I'm proven wrong it's a win for both of us, because it would be a pleasant surprise for me. I agree that it's fascinating to look at it from this perspective, however, there is nothing in the show so far that supports/explores this aspect, and without anything to work with in the actual anime, well... Would also be a pleasant surprise to see this in future episodes
tl;dr: It's important to not interpret what characters say or how they act as a reflection of the author's political/sociocultural beliefs.
I don't think you should take a disagreement with the author's beliefs into account in how you feel about a show, however, I think when possible beliefs translate into the writing of the author it's interesting to analyze. And as I explained before anime just does it way too often to just simply dismiss it. There are works of authors who go against the norm but many works in their writing are inherently shaped by the restrictive society and through cultures that developed from it, and it helps to understand why things are written the way they are.
Sorry for writing so much. I think this is an interesting topic to debate on. You're free to disagree with me, I am also aware that I'm generalizing strongly, it doesn't change my feelings about the scene though.
rarely discussed in anime
Well I think you're looking for a particular kind of approach to these topics which I don't really think media is supposed to do. If you want a nuanced discussion of sexual orientation and identity there are resources for that. Also I strongly disagree with the idea that non-heteronormative identities are not present in JP media spaces - there is so much media out there that presents or explores these kinds of identities. It may be that the way in which they interact with these identities doesn't make sense from a western cultural lens, but I think making these really foundational claims about erasure is almost certainly inaccurate. I can give examples if you'd like.
It is true that Japan is more culturally conservative, but it is because of that fact that we can look at the way these anime interact with these ideas in a positive light. You have to change your viewing angle to understand what it is you're looking at.
because the mention of your gender or sex in itself "explains" everything when there is more to the actual reason why characters feel/behave that way
again, I don't think what a character says/believes necessarily corresponds to something that we the audience should feel/believe. even if the characters are dismissive, we as the audience can acknowledge that and understand it within the appropriate cultural context. we don't have to interpret it as a statement of "truth" or even an idea that the author believes corresponds to reality. the fact that the narrative is making this character is engage with this idea, to ask these questions, is fundamentally transgressive of the existing social order.
It also wasn't discussed in Tengoku so far.
I fundamentally disagree with you. I think Tengoku is absolutely interrogating the ideas of gender and sexual identity. One of the main leads is attempting to claim and explain a transgender identity to the other main character. What more do you want?! ???
We also have this oedipal (I don't know the right word to use, so I'm going with this) scenario where a boy's sexual fascination with his older sister is interrogated through an incredibly violent near death experience which results in him be transferred into her body. This scenario forces him to simultaneously mourn the death of a family member: more specifically the death of an unrequited and culturally forbidden love interest, AND to have the sexual component of that forbidden desire partially fulfilled through the objectification of his own new body. Like WTF.
that forbidden desire partially fulfilled through the objectification of his own new body. Like WTF.
I don't like how dogmatic people are about this part. This person is living in their "new" body now , it is just unfair to expect some level of absolute celibacy and holier than thou moral conduct.
Psychologically and physically character has these desires so what are they supposed to do about it ? Accept some sort of preaching about being "wrong"?
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I don't know if "people" refers to me in this context or not, but regardless of your intent I will elaborate:
I do not believe that he should have been celibate. But I do think that the situation itself is deeply interesting and I appreciate people thinking about it. The object of desire becoming one's own body is just such a profound philosophical concept it is mind-blowing for me. Like the experience of kristevan abjection at the self-objectification following such an event must be absolutely ... I can't even imagine it.
Well I think you're looking for a particular kind of approach to these topics which I don't really think media is supposed to do. If you want a nuanced discussion of sexual orientation and identity there are resources for that.
Of course there are resources to that, but when themes like friendship, family, belonging, etc. are discussed in anime why on earth is sexual orientation and gender identity now something which media isn't supposed to do? Fiction is about entertainment on one hand, but it can also tell powerful messages, be relatable or empower people. Fiction can be anything. I'm just expressing my frustration because I'd like media in general to be more progressive in embracing and appealing to different kinds of people.
Also I strongly disagree with the idea that non-heteronormative identities are not present in JP media spaces - there is so much media out there that presents or explores these kinds of identities. It may be that the way in which they interact with these identities doesn't make sense from a western cultural lens, but I think making these really foundational claims about erasure is almost certainly inaccurate. I can give examples if you'd like.
I'm not talking about erasure. I said I'm generalizing but I acknowledge there are shows which do it differently. I have watched/read some. Doesn't change that I'm massively disappointed by many anime that do it differently. Doesn't help that to read many reports of queer people being treated inherently differently by Japanese society. I didn't look into it to get some statistics or any of that kind, just talking from my experience. I may be ignorant, educate me then. But just to make it clear, my point comes from being frustrated with the majority. Making an absolute claim would be stupid on my side because there are always outliers.
again, I don't think what a character says/believes necessarily corresponds to something that we the audience should feel/believe. even if the characters are dismissive, we as the audience can acknowledge that and understand it within the appropriate cultural context. we don't have to interpret it as a statement of "truth" or even an idea that the author believes corresponds to reality.
Definitely not. I never said that. In fact, I want to have more discussion and debate on stuff, and media encouraging it and showing different nuances and aspects of a topic. I don't want it to be black-and-white, hence the rant why I dislike how conservative norms are often used in anime dialogue to avoid an actual discussion about the topic at hand.
It is true that Japan is more culturally conservative, but it is because of that fact that we can look at the way these anime interact with these ideas in a positive light. You have to change your viewing angle to understand what it is you're looking at.
Yes with a positive mindset you can look at things in a better way that's always true, however, I am inherently critical towards what I watch, which may be or not a good thing and personally, I don't like if a show does pretty much no effort to deal with a topic and it's up to the viewer to put nuance into it themselves. Good if you can, however, it's not a quality of the show itself.
I fundamentally disagree with you. I think Tengoku is absolutely interrogating the ideas of gender and sexual identity. One of the main leads is attempting to claim and explain a transgender identity to the other main character. What more do you want?! ???
Hiruko is not trans. Definition:
A transgender person (often abbreviated to trans person) is someone whose gender identity or gender expression does not correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth.
the situation of inhabiting quite literally a different body than the body you were born with and are comfortable with, and one of a relative on top, is a different situation and far removed from a discussion of gender identity if you ask me, and the topic of being uncomfortable in your own body and having a different identity than society puts on you is not explored here. You can make a connection, but it is far-fetched in my opinion. And per definition, Hiruko still doesn't apply. I did think that Hiruko was trans in ep 2, but I definitely don't think so when knowing the truth now.
We also have this oedipal (I don't know the right word to use, so I'm going with this) scenario where a boy's sexual fascination with his older sister is interrogated through an incredibly violent near death experience which results in him be transferred into her body. This scenario forces him to simultaneously mourn the death of a family member: more specifically the death of an unrequited and culturally forbidden love interest, AND to have the sexual component of that forbidden desire partially fulfilled through the objectification of his own new body. Like WTF.
I had to google oedipal lol. And yes, that's interesting to think about (also this one scene where it's implied he kinda masturbates with it (?) ), how is that related to anything gender identity related or whatever we talk about, though?
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Of course there are resources to that, but when themes like friendship, family, belonging, etc. are discussed in anime why on earth is sexual orientation and gender identity now something which media isn't supposed to do?
I think those particular themes are only explored explicitly in works that are or were traditionally aimed at younger audiences (shounen). Otherwise I would put forth that most works do not discuss their ideas directly through character dialogue, they do so through narrative, setting, symbolism, and reference. A case of showing rather than telling, if you will.
And given the fact that these ideas are not really archetypal for media aimed at a younger demographic, it makes sense they would not be generally explored or discussed explicitly in character dialogue.
Also I want to amend my previous statement. I don't really like my previous usage of the phrase "supposed to do". I saw it at the time of posting to but I needed to get out of the house to watch Suzume in theaters so didn't have time to edit. I don't want to prescribe how art should be, but rather do my best to interrogate and interpret how it is.
From my perspective these themes absolutely are investigated in Japanese media, just not in the direct "hit you over the head with explicit dialogue stating exactly what the themes are" sense.
I'm just expressing my frustration because I'd like media in general to be more progressive in embracing and appealing to different kinds of people.
I feel like you don't actually engage with Japanese media asides from a few mainstream properties. JP media has far better LGBT representation than western media. Anime and manga specifically is an incredibly effective and prolific source of this representation and discussion. Like, I read you saying this and I have to sit down and really think "what the fuck is he talking about?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_anime_and_manga
https://theexonian.net/opinions/queer-representation-in-anime
https://www.cbr.com/queer-anime-characters/#grelle-black-butler
https://www.unpublishedzine.com/film/lgbt-representation-in-animeIt is by no means "perfect", but as one of these sources I've provided notes "there is no such thing as perfect representation". As a random aside: I am currently watching Revolutionary Girl Utena with two friends who fall outside of the gender binary in their expression and we all absolutely love the LGBT themes of the show.
And when we consider the current political norm of Japan the progressive nature of these media is very clearly amplified. Otaku spaces have a rich history in this space, literally the first otaku were women in their 20s-30s exchanging fanfiction works at comiket which prominently featured gay themes! Otaku media (more specifically amateur works, aka doujinshi) is legitimatelly the de-facto sexually progressive media space in Japan. For a source on this you can check out Robot Ghosts and Wired Dreams by Kotani Mari.
Doesn't change that I'm massively disappointed by many anime that do it differently.
What exactly do you want? I feel like you may be setting an absurdly high bar here.
I am inherently critical towards what I watch [...] however, it's not a quality of the show itself.
Well it sounds like you have a preconceived notion about the efficacy of the media at dealing with these sorts of topics, and then your cognitive bias leads you to continuously come to negative conclusions about said media. It's not an honest or reasonable way to approach your media consumption, imo. You're being "critical" only in a sense of "relative to my beliefs", but you aren't being critical of your own ideas and thus dismiss nuance and alternative interpretations as being "not actually there".
This is unfortunately a very common way that people have been taught to engage with media. To be specific, I strongly disagree with the idea that you can claim anything is "a quality of the story itself". Stories have no meaning until the point at which they are interpreted, at which time a meaning is found. See Saussare, semiotics, and death of the author.
Hiruko is not trans.
Certainly not in the same way that real people are "trans" because we don't have the technology to transfer people's minds into other bodies, but it is not far-fetched to connect Hiruko's lived experience and the associated body dysphoria to transgenderism. Claiming that they are not trans because they were born in a different body is a really dishonest assessment, in my opinion. Yes, there is this fantasy element to it, but it absolutely CAN be used as a device to investigate and legitimize transgender experiences.
Do you really honestly believe that this technical differentiation de-legitimizes them? I'll have to get some additional opinions because I am by no means an expert on this, but regardless of whether they are or aren't technically "trans", I think their circumstances can certainly be used as a way to investigate and legitimate trans identities.
how is that related to anything gender identity related or whatever we talk about, though?
it's not related to gender identity but it is certainly fascinating from a lacanian psychoanalytical angle. and I think my usage of oedipal to describe it isn't actually all that off-base, it's just that Freud had a massive blind spot when it came to sibling relations, so I don't really feel like psychoanalysis offers the exact right language for understanding this narrative.
Also reminder this is a post apocalyptic society and these kids only know as much as their orphanages or street gangs have taught them, it would be odd to blame this or that on "Japan" since this is its own world as it stands
Sorry I'm not trying to come off as an asshole but isn't straight considered normal since the majority of the population is straight? like is it rude to assume someone will most likely be straight considering statistically they most likely will?
Also I gotta ask do you believe problematic media shouldn't exist? I read the part of this thread where you took issue with things like lolis, panty shots etc and Idk to me I find media that has ethically questionable elements to it interesting I feel it would be extremely boring if weird media couldn't exist. Btw I think the loli and panty shot stuff is weird but I think people shouldn't be shamed for depicting it, art should be free no?
Sorry I'm not trying to come off as an asshole but isn't straight considered normal since the majority of the population is straight? like is it rude to assume someone will most likely be straight considering statistically they most likely will?
I think that a lot people being straight is not something you can statistically prove, because being gay or bi has been repressed for a long time, and is still suppressed in more conservative societies. You don't know whether you are gay or bi if you never explore or think about it, or if you consider it "wrong".
Which is more my issue with the dialogue. As I pointed out in my lengthy discussion with Mator, I don't think it's a huge issue at all, the dialogue just stood out to me as unnatural. Because if you ask me, just because you say that you both are boys doesn't imply much to me, it only makes sense if you treat being straight as "normal" and both sides see it that way, which is a society thing mind you. That's why I mentioned that it could be due to a Japanese writing it because Japanese society is not liberal in that way. Queer people are treated inherently differently over there, at least from what I read.
I feel it would be extremely boring if weird media couldn't exist.
Weird media doesn't equate to showing morally questionable content? There are various weird anime which don't rely on sexualized lolis and so on. I like anime being weird, and trust me, it doesn't need problematic stuff at all to be weird.
You can have a different view on it, but when it feels like problematic content in X anime only exists to feed a certain kind of disgusting audience, then I dislike it. It's more excusable if it's part of the story or necessary to be told (like in Berserk, where Guts is raped - It's a traumatic experience for him and it goes in line with the cruelty of the world established)
But if it's like Onimai, where all these sexualized shots of an underage girl service the story in no way except to feed the horny of people who get off underage girls, yeah, that I rather not have.
Wait this man eater was already shown! The kid in the underground orphanage who draws made a picture of a fish with human arms for legs. Did that kid make the man eaters or something?
You might be correct actually. From what I've gathered it seems like within the facility they are trying to create some sort of special children. One of them was shown to have to have some sort of ability to see into the future and one of them was also very athletically gifted. So they might also be involved in the creation of the man eaters or something.
So all his drawings are man-eaters?
Will we therefore soon see a man-eating child?
I am confused.Ep 1:
Ep 3:
What's more, the painter is giving the pictures to certain kids. One of them is I think not by accident named "Tokio", and he was angry about giving picture to other kids. Somehow the painter is creating those Man-Eaters in the future world - the fish with hands? So if he's giving picture to Tokio, monster appears in Tokio, if not, Monster appears somewhere else, like in second episode the bird was given to other child than Tokio. What you guys think? I haven't read the manga so it's just my theory, but can be real.
Although the whole bunch of mysteries, unspoken threads happening in this anime is incredible, I feel like I'm watching first time Attack on Titan. :D
so with what i understood from the episodes so far and the discussion threads is:
All the stuff with the school is the characters but before this whole apocalypse? But what about the Guy receiving the lewd pic in ep2? what has that todo with all this? or is it just "highschool" student stuff?
In ep3, when the guy got eaten, he had a functioning brain but a "useless" body. Then you hear shots when the sister is crying and hugging him (probably the girl getting shot) so they have a "working" head, dead body & dead head, working body. The doc went and well "mixxed" them? so its the brothers brain inside the girls body, thats why he? she? thinks they are the brother.? And cus its so morally absurd the doc went "missing" ?
Why he received the picture is still being debated in the manga.
As far as anyone is aware, it was some sort of attempted sabotage by someone inside or outside the organization. How? Because the kids are clones, or homunculi, I didn't really get it, and they were purposely kept in the dark about sex, love, and the differences between men and women
What a great story. I was so immersed in this world. The scene. The world so lived in with consequences. So much information and the producer managed to tell us this much only in this 23 min time. This is fricking incredible. So mesmerized, so immersed in it. So full of wonder. I just feel so drawn in…… personally one of the best anime’s I have seen in recent years….
now I understand why they included that scene of kiruko attempting to kiss themselves in the mirror
really messed up backstory. Curious on what they've done with the sister's brain
The moment I saw that scene I knew it was a body swap story. And the moment I heard her brother died I expected to be the brother in the sisters body. And when she said she was a guy, I was certain that's the case.
Also gives a new perspective on one of the first scenes where she said she was a boy too
I'm surprised my theory was correct, dope flashback episode as well. The way man-eaters... eat, is genuinely terrifying. Also at the end, a fish with multiple arms showed up, following the young artist in heaven's drawings... I think man-eaters are by-products of a disease and/or lab-grown creatures as I said before, and the kids inside are connected to their other sides (clones), curious to see where it goes from here
The fish at the end clearly was one of the drawings. Do you guys think the drawings were made into man eaters or are the drawings based on real man eaters?
Personally I think it's the first case. I kinda expect the children to become the man eaters. The cameras in the facility show a date a few months before the events of the back story. This could be a hint
I think it's closer to the first one too.
I assume the kid making the drawings doesn't know why he draws such things for each child, he just knows intuitively without being aware???
I somehow didn't catch that the kid is drawing an image for each child. Now I'm pretty sure that the monsters don't exist yet during the time and that they're artificially created. I'm sure that these children will turn into these monsters. Else I don't see the point of the kid giving them away.
They clearly try to make it seam like the dystopia world and the scenes in "Heaven" (which clearly is a research facility) plays at the same time, but the date on the surveillance camera is giving a hint that it actually plays at the same time as the brother died.
Watching the anime, I try to hold back as much as possible so as not to send out my theories, which after having read the manga and now watching the anime makes even more sense, and I started to look at the work with different eyes.
Is the manga worth reading?
Yes, but the anime is amazing and that's why I recommend following the anime.
It's the same, but with less breasts.Of course, if you read the manga you'll know more, you'll make theories and when you watch the anime you'll be analyzing the scenes.
poor Haruki :( but this is such a cool story thing and I'm excited to find out why the doc did this.
besides I really wish they both could be together at the end. I mean even though it was said that they are both guys it doesn't feel like Maru is against that thought just confused currently. The same for Haruki even though he said it, it wasn't a direct rejection more like he thinks Maru is straight and not Bi. But also it feels like Haruki says he admires Robin but it could be that there is more he doesn't actually know or hasn't thought of as a possibility.
So it feels like the author is for now rejecting it but doesn't remove the possibility completely.
Well maybe I'm just thinking too much about it because I just want them to be together at the end xD
This episode finally got me hooked, and I hope that it's going to stay this way :D
The narrative was really effective for the backstory and got me pretty emotional in a very short timespan. It also made me notice how good the sound design in this show is. I just wish that Kiruko didn't undergo a body swap and instead got confused by the shock or transitioned normally, but it is what it is. Now that she swapped, it is fascinating how she seems to be both attracted towards and repulsed by her body.
With this part of the backstory, the new man eater (resembling the kid's drawing) and the idea that there are “babies” without faces in this universe, we got a lot to unravel in the following episodes :p
this just keeps surprising me every single week. the adaptation is doing a much better work of exploring the characters than the manga, heavily better I would say. the whole event that occurs in this episode was told in a way that the manga wasn't capable of doing, it was so tragic and profound and they understood the dynamics of the two siblings so well. and well, let mesay it again: the animation!!! thhe ANIMATION!! simply incredible. the voice-acting this episode was superb too.
