— — — —— — —
×
— —— —
— — — —— — —
×
— —— —
— — — —— — —
×
— —— —
← darkroom
Dragon Ball Daima is more canon than Super.
Honestly I think this is the case.
I see everybody bending over backwards to make sense of Daima's 'plot holes' and questioning whether Daima is canon because of them, but all of its 'plot holes' come from the existence of Dragon Ball Super.
Two examples of these 'plot holes' are:
- Kibito Kai unfuses in both storylines (probably because this is just an element Toriyama had in mind for a DB continuation) so if Super takes place after, I guess they fused again offscreen???
- Super doesn't mention or allude to Daima's events at all
Honestly I think the answer is that Super does not follow the events of Daima. I think Daima is actually only connected to Dragon Ball Z, as an epilogue sidestory.
For years now, the DB brand (like the games) have sort of shoved Super off to the side while continuing to hold the original sagas up on a pedestal. Kakarot is a great example. It had Beerus and Golden Freeza, but those were DBZ movies.
Since Daima explores some of the same ideas that Battle of Gods explored, its possible that it represents an alternative. It is Toriyama writing an entirely separate epilogue to his original work that doesn't take into account any of the stuff from the past decade.
I think Daima is intended as a little DLC sidestory for Toriyama's original run, a little anime-only epilogue to cap off a marathon of the series with a bang, like what Toriyama and Toei wanted from GT.
I realize this is going to be a difficult pill for a lot of people to swallow, I think the Dragon Ball fandom is going to resort to hating on Daima or doing some square-object-circle-hole mashing to make everything line up before they admit Super is the less important media here.
Because if Super doesn't really matter, what was all the excitement we felt about Broly, or Gohan Beast?
Just fanservice...?
Well, yeah. That's all Super has EVER been really.
And that's what it remains. We can still enjoy it, as a fanservice sequel that we understand follows an alternate timeline. Maybe the difference between the timelines is Beerus waking up.
This is the best approach, since being a sequel means that none of its flaws affect the body of the original work or lower its potential rating in the way that the Buu saga does.
Daima is simply closer to the original work and to the definition of 'canon' than DB: Super imo.
I wanted to start this discussion on Anilist instead of the Dragon Ball subreddit because I'm too anxious that Dragon Ball fans will reject this interpretation with hostility.
You're not gonna see me complaining about that logic. I'm an OG who never really got into Super.
I think people should just stop complaining already. Toriyama-sensei wrote whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, lore/canon be damned.
I view every piece of Dragon Ball media as if it has its own canon (or as part of a tenuous fluid overall canon.) It's a much happier viewing experience.
DragonBall Super was a rushed production coming off the backbone of 2 films, I'm honestly glad Daima's ignoring everything regarding Super and makes no attempt to connect it's story to it. DragonBall -> DragonBall Daima -> DragonBall Z: Battle of Gods will stay as my ideal timeline for the series and what is and isn't canon.
To be clear, this also contradicts Battle of Gods, because Kibito Kai unfuses in that film, but also unfuses in Daima.
They'd be different timelines. But I get you.Ahh damn I forgot about that detail..
I see them both as alternate timelines. There is no real canon to the Dragon Ball franchise because we have the original manga, the original anime, the first 12 movies, Kai, movies 13 and 14, Super, movies 15 and 16, GT, and Daima.
Daima has so many plot holes with Super that it really comes off to me as a side story like GT was. The producer did say it was made for fans of GT, after all. Some theorize on Kanzenshuu's forums that it was meant to be a refresh that started its own thing. However, with Toriyama gone now, who knows what will happen? Perhaps we'll get a Daima movie, or a movie without branding. The rights for the manga are still in stasis, so I doubt we'll see Super 2 anytime soon.
Where they go from here and which anime they follow is up in the air as far as I'm concerned. I only wish Daima didn't contradict so much of Super so that it could fit neatly into my canon: original manga > Z anime > Daima > Super. But as everyone on Kanzenshuu's forums say, there is no real canon. Toei and Toriyama never cared for it, so it's pointless to try arguing about it and which is "more canon" than another.
It seems like you're agreeing with pretty much everything I tried to say in the post :)
Its true that Toei and Toriyama do not care about the canon in a sense. They DO care about the canon of the original story, as both Daima and Super make attempts to build off of loose threads left by that story, and even do some of the same ideas Toriyama had for a continuation which causes them to contradict.DBZ: Kakarot is a great example of how the Dragon Ball brand places the original story above everything else on a special pedestal, and Super has never been a part of that pedestal. Ultimately, every piece of Dragon Ball media is a satellite to the original story, including Super. Super and Daima ultimately represent different timelines.
Here's just hoping when the manga continues, we don't get Toyotaro throwing in continuity bandages like "oh yeah remember when we all turned into kids" or Goku using SSJ4 and clearly not for the first time, because that'd honestly make everything so much more confusing.
I'm worried they'll try to harmonize everything to some degree and I don't know if they should cause the two sequels were clearly not created with each other in mind.Agreed. I think this comment from the Kanzenshuu forums explains it best.
... I think at this point we have to accept that in Toriyama's mind, the only true "canon" was the original manga he drew from 1984-95 and everything before and after that wasn't stated in the text is whatever you want it to be. GT, Super, Battle of Gods, Daima, etc are all just toys in a wide open sandbox of creativity.
Curious because I haven't seen GT yet, but theoretically does it go: Dragonball -> Daima -> GT?
GT is non-canon.
I promise I'm not a hater. When you get into GT enough you realize its filled with little plot holes and weird writing and character designs that Toei and Tori aren't super proud of. They treat GT as a non-canon sink for inspiration. Watagash from Super is Baby from GT, SSJ4 got a redesign, Lord Luud inspired a God of Destruction in Super, and the Black Star Dragon Balls might be the inspiration for the Super Dragon Balls.Daima feels like a reattempt at GT's concept (little adventurous 'omake' sidestory to watch after finishing the main show) and uses some of the same ideas like everybody becoming children, visiting various worlds, and super saiyan 4
I know GT gets its hate, and I can see why, but I love it for what it is. It had a unique vibe, tried to take the series in a different direction, and had some really great moments, even if it wasn’t perfect. The designs, the music, and the way it aimed to feel like an adventure again all had their charm.
Yep I agree completely
Personally, I expect Daima to someday be announced as non-canon to the main story, just like GT. I haven't seen Daima or GT, and I'm looking forward to watching them both, but it's clear and common knowledge how GT had many concepts, such as SSJ4 which isn't part of Super or the direct Dragon Ball canon
Daima is certainly a part of the "direct dragon ball canon", but Super might not be. DBZ says 10 years of peace occur and Super never happens. Super is an official Dragon Ball What-If where a sequel happens in the decade of peace instead. This is why DB games will feature all of the Z sagas but they will seldom ever touch Super beyond Battle of Gods and Resurrection F which are Z films-- Daima takes place in that original continuity and all of its lore builds off of the lore introduced in Dragon Ball Super. Even if the 20 episodes of Daima itself didn't happen in the continuity of Super, all the information it presented is still true.
Daima is also more important to Toriyama than Super because its something HE made with his own hands and was heavily invested in, while Super was more Iyoku and Toei's project which he supervised and gave small instructions for.
I could see them being separate continuities, but that's as far as it will ever go. GT cannot be a separate continuity due to issues with the fabric of the plot, GT needs to be outside of canon, but Daima CERTAINLY isn't.The reason Daima is a separate continuity is because of the Dragon Ball Custody Battle between Iyoku and Shueisha. They are not allowed to do anything with Super right now.
Super not being part of the canon makes no sense. Super is the manga. It's canon. Super Hero movie is canon, Super Broly. They're all officially canon to the story.
Perhaps they're just both two separate branches of canon? I have no idea really, all this has become confusing. I'd like to get words from Toyotarou or someone behind the scenes to debunk the confusion.
I cna't say much, since I've not seen Daima. But I saw the concept of them being kids, which sounds stupid. I won't argue or debate this too much. I'll watch Daima to give an unbiased opinion
Two separate branches is correct, yes, but not of canon, just of continuity!!
Super takes place in a continuity where "what if instead of the Decade Of Peace, a sequel series took place?", while Daima takes place in the original manga's continuity where the decade following the defeat of Majin Buu is peaceful and uneventful.
Both are canon and lore revealed by both is true in general to the Dragon Ball universe.
Please read my above reply slowly, I said some information that would probably be useful to you and I'm not sure if you read it.Toyotaro can't give any information or closure, he's not in charge of the Dragon Ball Brand, he's just a poor soul who draws the DBS manga and has gotten caught in the middle of the custody battle for the franchise. Akio Iyoku is the true "new head of Dragon Ball" and he was responsible for pushing to get Broly, Super Hero and Sparking Zero created, but he is in a sticky situation, and if you're curious, I recommend looking up "Iyoku VS. Shueisha Dragon Ball Super" and doing some reading.
Anyway, I do want to explain a little bit about the Super canon...
Super is a sequel that was produced at the request of Toei after Resurrection F was extremely successful. Strangely enough, it is actually an "anime-first" situation, the DBS anime seems to be more important, with the manga mainly existing to promote it. It HAS a manga, yes, but the anime is actually "equally canon" to the manga, the two contradict each other and depict arcs, characters and even powerups differently. The DBS manga is literally an alternate version of Dragon Ball Super, and they ran concurrently with each other for a long time before Super's manga finally explored some original arcs (which Capsule Corp Tokyo is currently unable to adapt due to legal issues).
But to be very clear, I never said DBS was non-canon, its just likely not a part of the same package as the original DB manga and DB/DBZ tv series. You have Dragon Ball (including Z), and then it has an optional sequel called Dragon Ball Super that takes place in a continuity where the "10 years of peace" are instead host to new adventures related to gods and such.
Multiple continuities can exist. The information presented in canon alternate continuities still applies to all continuities, the Gods of Destruction and other universe from Super canonically exist during Dragon Ball Z, and all the lore revealed by Dragon Ball Daima still applies to Dragon Ball Super, even if the adventures of these stories don't necessarily all happen in the same continuity.The simplest way I can explain it is that the original manga is more important and "more canon" than anything else, including Dragon Ball Super. Daima was written without Super in mind, solely as a bonus story following the original storyline of the Dragon Ball manga.
When the original manga says that 10 years of peace happened, then 10 years of peace happened as far as it is concerned. But as far as Super is concerned, those 10 years were host to new adventures. Super doesn't just RETCON the previous content, because the brand has continued with things like Daima and video games that still prioritize what is contained in the original story, which gives the impression that Super is essentially a what-if sequel where 10 years of action happen instead of 10 years of peace. It IS canon, it's just very likely an alternate continuity. Daima can work in the original continuity because its just a 20 episode side adventure that doesn't take place on Earth, and it introduced a form that is a successor to Super Saiyan 3 into the canon, making it feel sort of like a cherry-on-top epilogue for the OG manga.
Yeah, Toriyama passed away while Daima was still in production, which makes it even more bittersweet. If Daima was meant to be his way of giving a proper send-off to Z, it makes it feel even more special. It really does seem like a natural continuation of Z rather than something that fits into Super’s timeline. If Toriyama wanted to write a separate epilogue without worrying about Super, that would explain why it doesn’t reference anything from it. Super has always leaned more into fanservice anyway, so Daima being closer to the original series in tone and intent actually makes a lot of sense. Whether people see it as canon or not, it’s still a part of his legacy.
Seriously, did 99% of the fandom kill all their brain cells or something? I am baffled with how everyone is reacting to Daima saying it is shit because it has plot holes etc. when no one actually though that maybe. JUST MAYBE, it's an alternate retelling of post-Buu saga? Like come on. Of course it doesn't make sense to Super because it is NOT A PREQUEL to Super. It's an alternate sequel to DBZ. These people need to watch Fate or something to understand this concept. Daima made it very clear since early on that it is not a prequel to Super but it is a sequel to Z. Both are possible. Z can have multiple alternate sequels. A what if a God of destruction woke up and there's god ki or what if Goku and co got turned into kids and went to the demon realm.
Sure it is possible something happens after Daima that causes them to forget the events of it or lose ssj4 or whatever but I think people need to stop trying to connect it to Super. You can compare it to Super but it is not a prequel to Super unless stated otherwise.
Exactly my thoughts! But, it'd be great if the team behind the project clarifies it. If not, these are all just theories. They owe us an explanation for this. Something I really hate about Toei/whichever team is handling dragon ball is their lack of communication. Like, ffs just tell us a season 2 for Super will air someday or Daima is an alternative or something.. I hate how such a big franchise is managed.
i feel like everything after OG DB is just fan service. like, do you really think they would have continued OG DB when it ended if it didnt make money and had a bunch of fans?
i do get this take, but like. just because theres no connection between this and super doesnt really mean its not cannon, there isnt REALLY a connection between z and super anyway, or daima and z. its just more dragon ball, which is always good in my book. im tired of every story having to be a super inportant story that is meant to be told for ages, just enjoy the overly powerful martial arts tv show lol.
but i like the watch order (if i was going to rewatch dragon ball) would be OG dragon ball, z, daima, then super.
to add on to this thought, even all the arcs werent really connected THAT much. like, the original sagas had no connection to each other, like a new villian would pop up and it would pretty much have nothing to do with the last arch, except for the sayan saga and the frieza saga. but they barely mention the next arc. like things that happen in the last arc hardly matter to the current arc in dragon ball, which really, is nice for a rewatch. tbh.
My ultimate point is that I think Daima is more important to Toriyama (and the Dragon Room by extension) than Super in a way. Certain things happen in both series because Toriyama wasn't very attached to Super and forgot he did them there whereas Daima was something he worked on very heavily and personally until his death (unlike Super which he had a somewhat hands-off approach with). I don't say this with a bias, other little things over the years have led me to believe Super is something the DB brand holds a little bit separate, and tbh this reason makes a lot of sense. I have a lot of love for Super and I'm currently doing a rewatch, I think as discourse evolves over the decades it could easily fall out of favour in the fandom and be talked about like GT, and I'll be prepared to defend it.
Daima can easily be a part of the original manga storyline, with the ten years of peace occurring afterwards and all of Super's worldbuilding and lore still being true as background information, while Super itself exists as a sequel series that occupies a unique space in the canon and is an alternative to the ten years of peace from the original manga. Of course it remains to be seen if this is the stance the official brand will take, I personally suspect they'll avoid the subject for a while. If they ever try to make them a single continuity then I guess I'll roll with it lol.Anyway, containing plotholes that make two supposedly consecutive stories not work together and repeating ideas isn't the same thing as two arcs being loosely connected.
Your argument about the continuity between Dragon Ball arcs doesn't actually hold much weight outside of Super which is criticized for exactly what you say. All of the original manga works using "and therefore" storytelling, there is usually a natural throughline from one thing to the next, with this really only falling apart during the Buu Saga. Super is criticized for its arcs being generally disconnected from each other with one or two exceptions. Even GT does the "and therefore" formula, and you could argue aspects of Daima are "and therefore" storytelling with the consequences of Dabura's defeat.
Update: I have discovered the true reason Daima does not reference Super.
I suggest everyone give this a careful read to be caught up.My personal prediction goes like this:
Dragon Ball Daima represents the start of a brand new sequel continuity separate from Super, and if the legal dispute with Shueisha is never settled in Iyoku's favour, then Capsule Corporation Tokyo will press forward with new animated projects taking place in the Daima continuity that don't use elements of the franchise owned by Shueisha. The SSJ4 continuity versus the SSJgod continuity.I honestly hope that prediction doesn't come true. The future of Dragon Ball Super honestly seemed quite bright and I would like Iyoku to "gain custody" of DBS and Toyotaro's stories, but currently things are in a standstill, and if they remain that way, I'm sure we'll get new animated projects that continue to ignore Super's existence sooner than later.
I've only just watched the series, so I've stayed in the dark about everything, I find it odd that people would call this bad just because it does not fit with Super.
The dragon ball series already has alternate timelines due to time travel in the cell saga, so whose to say this is not just another timeline that has nothing to do with Super.Yep! I agree! If you're curious why it doesn't deal with Super, I left another comment that has some useful info!
I might sound stupid for saying this, but who really cares? If it's canon, it's canon. If it's not, it isn't. Simple as that. GT something that's loved by many, and hated by many is not canon (I haven't seen it yet). Daima, I'm pretty sure is stated to be canon, but I'm not entirely sure, as I've yet to see it too.
GT had many concepts that isn't part of the canon, such as SSJ4. Apparently SSJ4 is now part of the canon, as it appeared in Daima? It's all confusing really, and I expect that Daima will someday be changed from canon to not canon, as it really does confuse the whole storyline. I assume it takes place before the end of Z, and somehow before Super? Which wouldn't make no sense at all, so it must be after Super???
Like I said, it really is confusing, and I truly believe it'll just be it's own standalone story, just like they did with GT. This feels like a reboot of GT, how they're kids, and all sort. It gives off GT vibes.
My moto is this. If it's not in the manga, forget about it. Daima has it's own manga. It's not part of the official manga, like DB, DBZ Kai and Super is. I don't see what the big fuss is, and atp I'm just blabbing on. But it's no big deal. This will likely be a repeat of GT and be considered not canon, as it quite literally contradicts the whole point of Super's canon
(Goku stating to Beerus in their first encounter that SSJ3 is his final transformation)
For those who're just as confused about this whole situation, just watch this video
